tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post973115418492521588..comments2023-10-28T04:06:59.629-05:00Comments on Plaisted Writes: Virtual School Scheme Goes DownMike Plaistedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18184502941014520240noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-76664965584125948812007-12-11T05:16:00.000-06:002007-12-11T05:16:00.000-06:00Why do you say these kids are "taking advantage" o...Why do you say these kids are "taking advantage" of taxpayer support? Don't all kids in public schools, and even some private ones, "take advantage" of taxpayer support?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-88334955475643800542007-12-08T23:18:00.000-06:002007-12-08T23:18:00.000-06:00Okay, thanks -- the terms help a lot to distinguis...Okay, thanks -- the terms help a lot to distinguish the difference.<BR/><BR/>But then, I've read homeschooling parents also upset about this in posts on blogs. That seems out of line and only muddling the line you draw between the two.<BR/><BR/>The court case was about virtual public schooling. The ruling does not threaten homeschooling. Got it now. Hope the homeschooling parents understand that, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-47899002312680186492007-12-08T17:48:00.000-06:002007-12-08T17:48:00.000-06:00"student's butt in a seat in a school building"......"student's butt in a seat in a school building"...that is a good one. And as a homeschooling family that has had one of my kids jump ship and join a public virtual school, I can confirm that the virtual school is completely different than real homeschooling. She answers to her teachers, who make the assignments, grade her progress and call all the shots. It is truly public schooling. If I have an idea for primary sources my kid should read in history, or an interesting experiment for Biology, too bad for me. Obviously I'm not enthusiastic about public education as a one way stream of information and expertise, but there you have it. Welcome to the big house.<BR/><BR/>So don't anyone confuse virtual public schooling and homeschooling. They are completely different world.borgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181363541875602529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-25839325363123652262007-12-08T15:33:00.000-06:002007-12-08T15:33:00.000-06:00"Anonymous" and Mike, it's clear we're talking two..."Anonymous" and Mike, it's clear we're talking two different things when we say "home schooling". <BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm referring to the traditional home school "movement" as supported by WPA and the HSLDA. The traditional movement rejects government mandated curriculum, oversight and testing.<BR/><BR/>You're referring to the generic concept that it is education that is physically occuring in the home. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you: virtual academies support education that is physically occuring in a home.<BR/><BR/>Virtual academies, despite the delivery method, fulfill the mission of public education.<BR/><BR/>The question is whether alternate delivery methods of public curriculum, oversight and testing are ever acceptable.<BR/><BR/>To be clear, is there a place for the government to fund education that doesn't have the student's butt in a seat in a school building?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-59387827124078522832007-12-08T13:23:00.000-06:002007-12-08T13:23:00.000-06:00If I read one more convoluted argument trying to e...If I read one more convoluted argument trying to explain why WVA, which is in homes and is schooling, somehow is not home-schooling . . . well, it's all evidence that some parents could benefit from a course in logic. Or at least a course in rhetoric and persuasion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-54448961714204257102007-12-08T12:57:00.000-06:002007-12-08T12:57:00.000-06:00Steve:K12/WIVA isn't any less support for home-sch...Steve:<BR/><BR/>K12/WIVA isn't any less support for home-schooling just because it's really good support. The only reason there are administrators in the district and certified teachers involved at all is to try to skirt the law. It didn't and shouldn't work. A "school" that, by necessity, cannot function without the basic structure of home-schooling is not a school -- it's support for home-schooling.Mike Plaistedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18184502941014520240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-46266720624714408722007-12-08T11:50:00.000-06:002007-12-08T11:50:00.000-06:00We can agree to disagree, but I maintain that ther...We can agree to disagree, but I maintain that there are important distinctions between public virtual schools and home-schooling.<BR/><BR/>Unlike WIVA, home-schooling parents are not required to use or follow any approved curriculum, nor do they have any interaction with public school teachers. Due to this and more, home-schooled students are not subject to the same academic accountability. <BR/><BR/>WIVA students in contrast use and follow a curriculum approved by NOSD that meets state standards. WIVA students are required to meet with WEAC dues-paying teachers and are taught and evaluated by those same teachers. WIVA students are then held to the same standards as other public school students, by taking the same standardized tests.<BR/><BR/>Said another way, by any measure, WIVA is not "state funded home schooling" because 1) WIVA students are held to the same curriculum, 2) are taught and tested by WEAC paying teachers, and 3) held to the same level of academic accountability.<BR/><BR/>The stated and obvious mission of Wisconsin public schools is to insure all students have access to high quality educational programs and are held to high standards. This is happening by design at WIVA and other virtual academies. Fulfilling that mission is not at all guaranteed with home-schooling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-39588294498430864442007-12-08T10:10:00.000-06:002007-12-08T10:10:00.000-06:00"What people do in the privacy of their own lives ..."What people do in the privacy of their own lives as adults is their business. If they bring it into the public square and ask me as a taxpayer to support it or to endorse it, then it becomes a matter of public discussion and discourse."<BR/><BR/>An apt quote from a conservative presidential candidate -- although he was talking about gay marriage (and about quarantining people with AIDS).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-50699594913123766932007-12-08T10:04:00.000-06:002007-12-08T10:04:00.000-06:00Thanks, Patrick, for defining our progressive issu...Thanks, Patrick, for defining our progressive issues for us. You'll excuse me if I let those things be sorted out by actual progressives. Be that as it may, I know how some progressives -- particularly those doing home-schooling -- think that Wisconsin's liberal home-schooling law should be supplemented by public funds. Other will disagree. I certainly do.<BR/><BR/>But at least we are making progress. You are the first commenter, Patrick, who has admitted that the K12/WIVA scheme is simply support for home-schooling. I hope to expand on this in a new post sometime this weekend, but the state needs to make an eyes-wide-open determination about whether it is going to do that and, if so, to what extent, rather than ignore the law (please make a list of other laws you would like to see ignored) by rubber-stamping this bastardization of the charter/open-enrollment law.<BR/><BR/>That determination stands on its own as a policy issue, regardless of what WEAC on one side and the Bradley Foundation/K12/MSR say or do. <BR/><BR/>What the right-wing does in these situations is try to prevent advancement of a policy position by pointing to who supports or opposes it. The WEAC membership has its own reasons for protecting public schools from well-funded attacks like "choice" and the K12/WIVA scheme. That doesn't make them wrong. And I know for a fact that the interest of WEAC's membership is more than financial -- they are genuinely concerned with the quality and availability of public education in Wisconsin. The same cannot be said of the K12 profiteers. <BR/><BR/>Like I said, I'll get into this more later, but those who make the choice to ditch the public schools for home-schooling are often brave, committed people who are trying to do the best for their kids. But part of the committment and the price for that choice means that public funds won't be available -- any more than it would be for those who choose private schools (outside of Milwaukee).Mike Plaistedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18184502941014520240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-39971714205665247262007-12-08T09:46:00.000-06:002007-12-08T09:46:00.000-06:00Mike, yes, they make home visits -- if students ar...Mike, yes, they make home visits -- if students are in public schools. But that's a sad reason that some are not -- a few cases, as you may not know, of abusive parents pulling out their kids from public schools when teachers or school social workers see evidence of abuse and try to investigate it. This is only a small group, of course -- but no child is to be left behind to be abused. . . .<BR/><BR/>I would guess that WVA, with its public funding, did mean that those parents could not block access to the site of their schooling, their homes. And that is an aspect of accountability that may have been lost by North Ozaukee's poor structuring of its virtual school so as to run afoul of the law. So it may be worthwhile for wise heads to get together and come up with a way to do this within the law -- for one thing, to ensure safety of the few students who parents may have run afoul of abuse laws and just ran for homeschooling for the wrong reasons.<BR/><BR/>Whether WVA, with its limited interaction of teachers and students for an hour a week or so, also paid anything for school social workers to be involved with these students on site would seem doubtful. But perhaps a restructuring of WVA within the law in terms of teacher-student contact also could include some funding for other services provided by public schools, such as home visits by teachers -- and others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-25171836027180660952007-12-08T09:22:00.000-06:002007-12-08T09:22:00.000-06:00Mike:There are tow other points you need to consid...Mike:<BR/><BR/>There are tow other points you need to consider aside from the performance of the virtual school students. The first is the motivation of WEAC. Even they admit that these students are receiving a quality education--unlike many students in other schools. What are the motives of WEAC here? And why are they shielded from the type of criticism you heap on K12--another special interest here. If you believe that K12 is taking advantage of the situation, surely WEAC is too. Further, WEAC's actions ruin a situation that worked for many, and we have been content as a society to enforce some laws and not others. Secondly, as a public school teacher, I'd argue that home schooled students have every right to the $5200 or so dollars, since money clearly follows students, not buildings or districts in Wisconsin. <BR/><BR/>The person who mentioned that this is a progressive issue made a strong point as well. The virtual school was a solution, not a problem. WEAC was the big corporate interest that squashed it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-68065636311595596212007-12-08T08:22:00.000-06:002007-12-08T08:22:00.000-06:00There is a question in the midst here whether teac...There is a question in the midst here whether teachers can make home visits. Of course they can, and many do. I know many teachers who will visit a home out of concern for a child's performance or attendance. I'm not sure whether they would actually do it to tutor -- I don't know any teachers who would have time for that -- but nothing prevents it that I am aware of.<BR/><BR/>The performance of the highly-motivated home-schoolers who are taking advantage of the K12/WIVA tax-funded support is not surprising and assumed by all parties. But the courts can't just say "they're successful, therefore we can ignore the law". This is more than a technicality -- state law simply does not allow for taxpayer support for home-schooling, no matter how cleverly K12/WIVA tried to shoe-horn it into the charter school-open-enrollment law.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure the WIVA parents appreciate the program. They are getting the best home-schooling support money can buy, without having to buy it themselves. But the state legislature has to decide if they are going to support home-schooling in this manner. For various reasons, I say "no", but if you can get it done, good for you.Mike Plaistedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18184502941014520240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-91266140811890394982007-12-07T23:06:00.000-06:002007-12-07T23:06:00.000-06:00It's an easy thing for them to do, since student w...<I>It's an easy thing for them to do, since student wellness/performance is at least 4th or 5th on their list of priorities.</I><BR/><BR/>Talk about hollow grandstanding.Other Sidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06475658453374184885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-73470886887645559762007-12-07T17:39:00.000-06:002007-12-07T17:39:00.000-06:00Mikey, how can you call yourself a progressive whe...Mikey, how can you call yourself a progressive when you so staunchly support the status quo? I read your entire post Mike and was not the least bit surprised to see you totally gloss over the performance levels of the students of WIVA. <BR/><BR/>Not that I expect an honest answer, <I>but how does that not factor into this equation?</I><BR/><BR/>Once again, you are playing the role of the loyal shyster who can craft an argument for/against anything. You quote technicalities like some bureaucrat, but we all see through your smoke. Your socialist diatribe against WIVA and K12 is nothing more than hollow grandstanding on behalf of your Party allies, unionized teachers.<BR/><BR/>Kudos to the many good posts made here by fraley, elrond, various anonymouses and others.<BR/><BR/>WEAC and their minions do not want to make this an examination into whether or not the students of WIVA are doing well. It's an easy thing for them to do, since student wellness/performance is at least 4th or 5th on their list of priorities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-53177325573020738932007-12-07T16:14:00.000-06:002007-12-07T16:14:00.000-06:00anon 1:02 PM - I never heard of that before and I ...anon 1:02 PM - <BR/><BR/>I never heard of that before and I would think that Public Schools are very careful about things like that because of equal treatment requirements. <BR/><BR/>I don't think they can say that they'll assist one parent in educating there child at home and say that they won't do the same for another. <BR/><BR/>Our blog host is a lawyer and maybe can provide more insight on that. <BR/><BR/>The more I read the worse I feel for the people affected by this decision. Was this decision based on the law or other considerations? <BR/><BR/>I support our teachers and don't want to do anything that would hurt them, but it appears these people really want there help. I don't know all the reasons why people won't send there kids to the schools but it is something that I would like to hear more about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-37058996417421990852007-12-07T13:36:00.000-06:002007-12-07T13:36:00.000-06:00The WEAC needs to make up their minds. Either they...The WEAC needs to make up their minds. Either they want parents involved in their own children's education or they don't. Above the article on shutting down the Virtual school because parents are too involved in their education they now have a article talking about parents being able to take more time off of work to be more involved in their children's education. What a bunch of hypocrites.<BR/><BR/>http://www.weac.org/news/2007-08/dec07/fmla.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-30989107106917383142007-12-07T13:21:00.000-06:002007-12-07T13:21:00.000-06:00I guess because I homeschool I shouldn't have to p...I guess because I homeschool I shouldn't have to pay taxes on your public school then right? Wrong. Get over it. We all have to pay taxes for things we don't agree with or support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-61042450679839924692007-12-07T13:02:00.000-06:002007-12-07T13:02:00.000-06:00I also wanted to comment that I know for a fact th...I also wanted to comment that I know for a fact that Headstart in Oshkosh will send teachers to your home if you decide you don't want your child to go to the school. So, yes teachers do make housecalls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-72122657242769753882007-12-07T10:57:00.000-06:002007-12-07T10:57:00.000-06:00Sara- Are you saying that the Virtual Program shou...Sara- <BR/><BR/>Are you saying that the Virtual Program should be allowed for children with special needs rather than teachers actually going to the home? <BR/><BR/>I'm not aware of the program you say allows teachers to go to someones home. I do know a family with kids that have special needs that decided to home school because both private and public education was not working for them. However, to my knowledge they're no programs that allowed teachers to assist them in there home. <BR/><BR/>There may be some merit to this for children with special needs to remain home. I think the schools do there best to take care of these kids but maybe it would be better with a program like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-61137460416262927502007-12-07T09:06:00.000-06:002007-12-07T09:06:00.000-06:00Mike, these posters are really taking you to the w...Mike, these posters are really taking you to the woodshed, you may want to step away from this one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-41057585891109711502007-12-07T06:51:00.000-06:002007-12-07T06:51:00.000-06:00Point of clarification: My son is enrolled at WIV...Point of clarification: My son is enrolled at WIVA. I have never been “required by a contract with the school to devote at least five hours a day to provide primary instruction.” I have been told that the rigorous curriculum may require my child to devote 5 or more hours to his schooling.<BR/><BR/>Also, I am not home-schooling my son. We did not enroll our son at WIVA because he was “going to be home-schooled anyway” and we did not “attempt to hijack public funding to support home schooling” My son is being schooled at home. My son attended our local public school for three years prior to his enrollment at WIVA. His needs were not being met at our local public school and so we chose the best public school option available to him. My younger son is attending our local public school and is thriving there. I am familiar with families that home-school and there are clear distinctions between virtual schooling and home-schooling. We cannot and do not expect to have the autonomy of a home-schooling family because we are aware that our schooling is being funded by tax dollars (ours included). Additionally, as a charter school, WIVA is accountable to even a greater degree than most public schools. Please refer to DPI’s website for further information on this requirement of accountability<BR/><BR/>http://www.dpi.state.wi.us/sms/csindex.html<BR/><BR/>“The Wisconsin charter school law gives charter schools freedom from most state rules and regulations in exchange for greater accountability for results. The charter defines the missions and methods of the charter school; the chartering authority holds the school accountable to its charter. The charter school motto is "Autonomy for Accountability".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-32834552835547443792007-12-07T06:48:00.000-06:002007-12-07T06:48:00.000-06:00Anonymous,Please consider that school districts ar...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Please consider that school districts are permitted to provide homebound instruction to students who are unable to attend school due to physical or mental health issues. In my research, I discovered one school district that included homebound instruction as part of their response to "managing agressive student behavior". At least one district indicated that the amount of actual face to face contact with the homebound teacher could be as low as 1/2 to 2 hours per week for 7-12 students and 2 to 3 hours for K-6 students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-40125498953397515222007-12-07T06:35:00.000-06:002007-12-07T06:35:00.000-06:00Has there ever been a time and program that public...Has there ever been a time and program that public school teachers went to people's homes to assist parents in educating children? <BR/><BR/>I think children always had to go out, regardless of the weather to go to a public school. <BR/><BR/>I don't know of any situation that public teachers made house calls, which is essentially being done here albeit, electronically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-74567761775917174812007-12-06T22:59:00.000-06:002007-12-06T22:59:00.000-06:00I think you are off the rails on this one. I'm a ...I think you are off the rails on this one. I'm a liberal homeschooling mom, a community activist, and I have a high school daughter in a virtual school in WI. If k12/WIVA was doing religious indoctrination, I could see that as a reason for shutting it down. If the kids were not learning, fine shut it down. All we seem to have in this case is caring families who need support in getting their children a fine education. <BR/><BR/>So the big issue is who pays? We all pay into the system. If my local district had an attitude of openness and change, I would work with them and have my kids in public school. They don't. I did not want doors to close on my kids before they were in middle school and frankly, I didn't have all the time in the world to make change in the system. Kids get older, and then it is too late. <BR/><BR/>Public schools work for the vast majority of kids and their families. The better the school, the more they attract students. I'm in the SW part of WI and this year there were no National Merit semi-finalists west of Madison, except my older daughter. She would not have this level of achievement in the rural public schools. So my younger one wanted the structure of a virtual school. Why on earth should I have to pay for this kind of curriculum if the public school system can serve this need? <BR/><BR/>Finally, homeschoolers are not elitists in my experience. Most live fairly simply and with one spouse not working they make some sacrifices for that lifestyle. I agree that some families are motivated by religious swoon, but that subset typically want curricula steeped in the Bible. That is not what public virtual schools offer, and so would not naturally attract this group. I'm sure you wish this was a radical wing-nut bunch of religious extremists that are easily pushed aside for the purposes of the high ground of public schooling. I say it isn't so, and in your rant you lost the high ground.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20755638.post-45699555994985747172007-12-06T19:59:00.000-06:002007-12-06T19:59:00.000-06:00The more I read these comments and the more I thin...The more I read these comments and the more I think about it, it is more and more clear that K12/WIVA is simply a Cadillac-level, taxpayer-funded program of support for home schooling. <BR/><BR/>And, you're right, Elrond, I would oppose a change in state law to fund home-schooling in this or any other way. Without negating all the hard work, commitment and, yes, success of some parents involved in home-schooling (I said "some"), it is an elitist program that very few are able to commit to -- not to mention a largely religious movement to boot. <BR/><BR/>State law already gives parents fairly free reign to declare they are home-schooling and avoid mandatory attendance in a real one. I don't see any reason for the state to pay for it on top of that.<BR/><BR/>As for WEAC, their interest is, by law, that of their members. I happen to know from personal experience (I worked for their competitor/companion WFT for several years in the '90s and was involved in some lobbying and other joint projects) that WEAC members are very concerned with the state of education in Wisconsin. They are fighting a rear-guard action against schemes by various right-wing activists that don't give a damn about Wisconsin children; who are only interested in destroying public education and padding their own fat pockets. There are many times -- such as the fight against school "choice" where the interest of WEAC's members also match the public interest.<BR/><BR/>The fight against state-funded home-schooling is one of those fights.Mike Plaistedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18184502941014520240noreply@blogger.com